Please, let's stop comparing car deaths to gun deaths.

"Berang" (berang) 06/19/2016 at 20:44 • Filed to: None

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“ More people are killed in traffic accidents than are killed on purpose by deadly firearms - but nobody wants to regulate cars! ” Traffic lights, speed limits, all manner of road signs, parking meters, driver licensing, registration, all manner of vehicle code, safety testing, etc. and people still act as though traffic deaths have caused no changes whatsoever to how our society looks at and regulates motor vehicles.

When problems became apparent, people worked to fix them. Not just the vehicles themselves, but the way we use them too. Our entire system of using them, where and how we drive. And what’s the benefit of all this actually giving a shit about people’s lives? You can survive a 25mph impact without being impaled through the chest by the steering column of your car. And if somebody else hits you with their car, you won’t have a chunk of your flesh ripped out by a protruding hood ornament. We also make sure the people driving them have at least some basic comprehension of the rules of the road and how to operate the machinery, and we have them buy insurance just in case they still fuck up.

Of course this is all sort of beside the point, because generally people who buy cars don’t buy cars as a means to kill things, or even to intimidate people. Some though may buy certain vehicles to make up for perceived lack of bulk in particular organs, but that’s only a trivial, theoretical similarity. Although there are plenty of instances where things have been put in place to keep people from purposefully crashing into other people (strategically placed bollards for example), most of the changes made to the automobile and the systems that support it have been to prevent accidents. Killing people with cars on purpose is relatively rare. Cars, as deadly as they can be, are pretty awful as weapons. So it’s a silly comparison to make. Cars are vehicles, guns are not. Cars also generally get used continuously, over a period of time, daily, by average users. Guns do not. It shouldn’t be surprising that the machines which are used by more people in more areas, more frequently, and for far more time, are involved in more deaths. Relative to time used, I think one will find cars are actually rather safe.

So don’t compare car deaths to gun deaths. For one, cars and their supporting infrastructure have been getting improvement for decades to make them safer. Don’t even pretend like nobody cares. For two, cars generally are used more intensively, and in proximity to far more people on a regular basis than firearms. For three, their intended uses are completely different and incomparable.

Guns exist only to make us safer or to get us food. So their safety record should more appropriately be compared to things like smoke detectors and life preservers, or nets and fishing tackle.

So please, stop comparing gun deaths to car deaths. Instead think about comparing gun deaths to fire hydrant deaths or pumpkin patch deaths.

Thank you.

My citroen won't start > Berang 06/19/2016 at 20:53

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I guess the take from all this is, cars are for driving, if used improperly they kill people.

Gun are for killing, that’s the purpose they’ve had since conception, they kill people.

Morans.

TheD0k_2many toys 2little time > Berang 06/19/2016 at 20:55

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nah ill keep doing it. Both are just tools. You can kill 50 people with a car easily. Gun you either need to reload or switch weapons.

And most americans have no comprehension of what driving actually is. im more scared on the road then i am when im shooting with someone who has never held a gun

not for canada - australian in disguise > Berang 06/19/2016 at 20:56

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America is a country that has banned Kinder Surprises because they’re a “choking hazard” and the MASSIVE yellow capsule that literally NO child could ever swallow being placed in the candy is simply too dangerous, but any old fuck, even if they’re on a fucking no fly list, can just walk into a gun store, fill out a few forms, plop down their hard earned murica’ dollars and walk out with an AR-15 because some people 400 years ago said they could.

Muricah’.

Berang > My citroen won't start 06/19/2016 at 20:56

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Guns are also made for eatin’ when they’re made out of chocolate.

Berang > TheD0k_2many toys 2little time 06/19/2016 at 20:59

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No, you can’t kill 50 people with a car, in a single incident easily. If it were easy, people would be using cars instead of guns when they wanted to go postal. And go ahead, name the last leader assassinated with a car. Go on.

wiffleballtony > Berang 06/19/2016 at 21:00

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It’s a valid statistic to put things in perspective. Cars aren’t weapons, but they are involved in more deaths. Using that to sarcastically suggest car control is silly.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > Berang 06/19/2016 at 21:00

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I agree that guns have an entirely different purpose, so comparisons can’t be made willy nilly. But the point I think most people try to make but don’t articulate well is that licensing for cars is woefully inadequate and people don’t seem to give a shit even though more people are killed in car accidents. What most of those people also fail to see is that gun licensing and regulation is also woefully inadequate.

TheD0k_2many toys 2little time > Berang 06/19/2016 at 21:01

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No because you need a large group of people in a small area. hard to find that.

Both are tools its the users not the tool that is the issue

Berang > not for canada - australian in disguise 06/19/2016 at 21:02

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How else is that old guy going to be safe? You think a normal revolver is going to save him from those ghost racoons he keeps seeing?

not for canada - australian in disguise > Berang 06/19/2016 at 21:03

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Maybe he thinks Kinder Surprises are going to break into his house and strangle his children to death!

Berang > wiffleballtony 06/19/2016 at 21:04

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What perspective?

dogisbadob > My citroen won't start 06/19/2016 at 21:05

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This x1000

Berang > TheD0k_2many toys 2little time 06/19/2016 at 21:06

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Some of the users are tools, if you know what I mean.

wiffleballtony > Berang 06/19/2016 at 21:06

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This is going to come off poorly, but everybody dies. Why don’t we focus on the big ticket items first, not the political agenda ones first.

Bman76 (no it doesn't need a WS6 hood) M. Arch > TheD0k_2many toys 2little time 06/19/2016 at 21:07

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I have never been more uncomfortable in a car than when around a new shooter or someone with poor muzzle awareness.

Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap > not for canada - australian in disguise 06/19/2016 at 21:09

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I mean. Alarming numbers of American children are astoundingly stupid.

Berang > wiffleballtony 06/19/2016 at 21:09

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Isn’t being alive sort of the biggest ticket item? You can’t really do much without being alive. I’m not even talking gun stuff here. Just the being alive part of any situation.

wiffleballtony > Berang 06/19/2016 at 21:13

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Sure it is, I was referring to the leading causes of death. Let’s spend our time and money beating cancer, getting people to eat right to avoid diabetes, exercise, suicide prevention. Those out weigh gun deaths by a massive margin.

Berang > Bman76 (no it doesn't need a WS6 hood) M. Arch 06/19/2016 at 21:15

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Oh yeah. That definitely gets my blood pressure up fast, and I know some pretty bad drivers. At least when you’re in a car you can keep your eyes on the driver at all times.

Urambo Tauro > Berang 06/19/2016 at 21:15

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I’m okay with comparing the two if the topic of the conversation is personal responsibility. Cars and guns have specific purposes, but people can wind up dead if the user fails to practice proper control. It doesn’t matter much it it’s a gun or a steering wheel in their hands.

Berang > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s 06/19/2016 at 21:16

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Well the gun argument applied to cars would be that we should just get rid of the laws since accidents happen anyway.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > TheD0k_2many toys 2little time 06/19/2016 at 21:16

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difference is a car will become incapacitated after hitting a person. A gun can continue to fire hundreds if not thousands of rounds before jamming or wearing out.

deer hit below

Berang > Urambo Tauro 06/19/2016 at 21:19

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If we were comparing accidents then of course.

Berang > wiffleballtony 06/19/2016 at 21:23

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The thing is, most of those things are either entirely out of people’s control, or only directly hurt the person afflicted. Whereas somebody shooting themselves, or 5 or 10 or 20 or 40 other people in one day, is a rather different problem, to which preventions could easily be applied.

Steve in Manhattan > Berang 06/19/2016 at 21:23

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I’m a liberal who thinks people should be able to own guns - weapons within reason, and if those people are sane.

And I’ll go out on a limb here - if you’re 20 feet from me and I aim my mom’s ‘98 Malibu at you and punch the throttle, you have a far better chance of living than if I aim an AR-15 at you and pull the trigger.

TheRealBicycleBuck > wiffleballtony 06/19/2016 at 21:27

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Unfortunately, there is a significant age factor at play that nobody bothers to discuss. You are correct that cancer and other diseases kill more people, but when you look at the problem by age, young people are more likely to be killed by cars, accidents, and guns than disease.

The other thing nobody acknowledges is that 75% of those gun deaths are suicides.

I’m not an advocate for increased gun restrictions, but I do believe that everyone should be aware of the statistics. Just like some feel it’s improper to compare car and gun deaths, I feel it’s improper to discuss the topics without being specific about the age factor and self-inflicted death.

Probenja > TheD0k_2many toys 2little time 06/19/2016 at 21:27

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I’m pretty sure Murica’ doesn’t have the worst drivers in the world, so you can’t possibly feel safer handing some stranger that you just met a gun rather than being in the street protected by 2 tons of steel, seatbelts and airbags.

You can’t avoid getting shot in the street by some crazy man, but you can avoid an accident on the road, most of the time.

And lastly I think the reason why cars kill more than guns is because first, there are probably more cars being used everyday than guns, and two, a car for some is a necessity, and I can’t think of a moment in time where a gun will be a necessity.

wiffleballtony > Berang 06/19/2016 at 21:28

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I listed several things, eating well and exercise is almost exclusively in your control. As is smoking with lung cancer and drinking with liver cancer. Not killing yourself is also your own job otherwise it’s not a suicide.

wiffleballtony > TheRealBicycleBuck 06/19/2016 at 21:31

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Do you have any data to back up that claim with young people? Genuinely curious. I was going off CDC data, where they indicated that diseases accidents and suicides are responsible for 75% of all deaths.

Berang > Steve in Manhattan 06/19/2016 at 21:34

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TBH, I don’t care how many guns a person owns, or what type they are. What bothers me is that to buy a gun you don’t have to prove you know how to handle it. You don’t have to register it. You don’t have provide any assurance that you won’t use it wrong or that you’ll take responsibility if it causes harm to others.

Certainly some states are better than others with this though.

Berang > wiffleballtony 06/19/2016 at 21:36

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And as I pointed out, none of those things directly harm other people. That’s kind of a big deal. If you want to ruin your own body/life, that’s one thing, but ruining another person’s is something else.

whoarder is tellurium > Berang 06/19/2016 at 21:36

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Only if people stop calling a regular ol’ semi-auto AR-15 an “assault rifle”.

Thanks

Steve in Manhattan > Berang 06/19/2016 at 21:36

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I’ll go a bit further - big magazines should be off the table, and weapons that can be converted easily to fully automatic should be as well. No hunter or anyone else needs that. But otherwise, let them have what they want - after a thorough background check.

Milky > Berang 06/19/2016 at 21:38

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Or keep comparing them to show that regulation can keep deaths per 100,000 declining.

Berang > whoarder is tellurium 06/19/2016 at 21:39

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Yeah. Keeping those priorities in whack.

Berang > Milky 06/19/2016 at 21:42

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Only if one suggests nobody ever calls for regulations on cars. Because in this instance what we’re really looking at is the effects of regulation, rather than a direct comparison between a vehicle and a weapon’s deadliness.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > Berang 06/19/2016 at 21:43

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I didn’t say it’s a well thought out argument.

whoarder is tellurium > Berang 06/19/2016 at 21:45

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Pfft. If you follow social media and watch the news, priorities shift daily (if not hourly) in today’s world.

Berang > TheRealBicycleBuck 06/19/2016 at 21:52

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I thought it was sort of silly, when a couple years ago there was a big hubbub about that old lady who was selling people “suicide kits” - when there’s practically an industry in this country for selling people shoddy handguns to off themselves with, and hardly anybody has a problem with that.

TheRealBicycleBuck > wiffleballtony 06/19/2016 at 21:56

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Yeah, I do. I'm on my phone right now, so I don't have easy access to it. I had a discussion with someone else a few weeks ago about this. I posted summaries and links to CDC data, NIH data, and more. You can look them up by going back through my posts or I can track them down tomorrow when I have access to my computer.

FastIndy > Berang 06/19/2016 at 22:00

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I prefer to compare mass shooting deaths to ladder fall deaths. Generally comparable in magnitude, even when you include the gang and drug-related killings.

Sure, the manufacturer tells you not to step on that super conveniently step-shaped top step... *wink wink*. WHO NEEDS THAT MANY STEPS! STOP TARGETING MINORITIES! CLOSE THE TOP STEP LOOPHOLE!

Berang > FastIndy 06/19/2016 at 22:02

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I can’t use a ladder to feed or protect my family.

But it is pretty long and hard.

TheRealBicycleBuck > Berang 06/19/2016 at 22:03

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Most gun control advocates don’t disaggregate gun-related deaths into self-inflicted and caused by others. They need the self-inflicted numbers to bolster their argument. When the suicides are removed, the number of gun-related deaths plummets.

At that point, the comparison to cars becomes moot.

-this space for rent- > Berang 06/19/2016 at 22:04

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I wished I’d have started with the last two paragraphs so I wouldn’t have wasted my time with the rest of it.

Nice job making no point whatsoever.

BReLp7dzHM3ytYsE > Berang 06/19/2016 at 22:04

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That’s actually totally fair. Here in Tennessee, you have to go through hunter’s safety in order to get a hunting permit, which is mostly gun safety and gun etiquette. I'm all for that. However, people will still be able to get around restrictions if they are determined enough.

FastIndy > FastIndy 06/19/2016 at 22:04

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I also have this for when my aluminum 8 footer tries to pull some shit on me.

TheRealBicycleBuck > Berang 06/19/2016 at 22:06

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Suicide can be accomplished in many ways. A kit could include a bunch of over the counter medicines with instructions to take them all at once. There are even instructions out there on how to do it with household cleaners. That's not a pleasant way to go.

BReLp7dzHM3ytYsE > Steve in Manhattan 06/19/2016 at 22:08

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Limiting mag capacity does nothing. The columbine shooters just bought more magazines. Also, despite what you may hear, most guns aren't easily converted to full auto. A hunter might not need full auto, I'll agree with you there, but there's nothing wrong with a high-cap mag in a hunting scenario. Not all wildlife is friendly, and you'll be wishing you had more rounds in your magazine if you somehow find yourself between a mama bear and her cubs. You just never know.

Berang > TheRealBicycleBuck 06/19/2016 at 22:08

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From what I remember it was a bag, a tube, and helium?

TheRealBicycleBuck > Berang 06/19/2016 at 22:10

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Sorry, but I don’t remember that story. I suppose it could have just held a big plastic bag. Suffocation is another unpleasant way to go.

Berang > TheRealBicycleBuck 06/19/2016 at 22:12

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http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/…

But admittedly considerably more pleasant than walking in on your son’s exploded head.

wiffleballtony > Berang 06/19/2016 at 22:26

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When a father of four dies from lung cancer, I’m sure his kids will be reassured that his choices didn’t affect them. Or when a drunk driver kills a family.

wiffleballtony > TheRealBicycleBuck 06/19/2016 at 22:26

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I’m not in a hurry. Whenever.

TheD0k_2many toys 2little time > Bman76 (no it doesn't need a WS6 hood) M. Arch 06/19/2016 at 22:29

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no cause new shooters know they need to handle a gun carefully. Those same people hop in a car and start texting and checking facebook while driving.

TheRealBicycleBuck > Berang 06/19/2016 at 22:30

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Perhaps for the person who finds them. The amount of damage is related to the caliber of the weapon. There was a movie where the protagonist preferred to shoot victims with .22 since it would penetrate the skull and “rattle around in their head.”

Berang > wiffleballtony 06/19/2016 at 22:34

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Well, I’m sure they’d feel much better if their father was shot to death by somebody who could’ve been turned away from a gun shop counter.

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > whoarder is tellurium 06/19/2016 at 22:39

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Ok, assault weapon.

wiffleballtony > Berang 06/19/2016 at 22:40

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I’m sure they’d feel just as agrieved in either situation. Trying to measure sorrow is a pointless endeavor.

Berang > wiffleballtony 06/19/2016 at 22:44

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In any event, it’s still not one person deciding to take the lives of some other people. So I’m kind of done with this particular “what about diseases” red herring.

wiffleballtony > Berang 06/19/2016 at 22:47

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You’re entitled to your opinions.

whoarder is tellurium > sm70- why not Duesenberg? 06/19/2016 at 22:50

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Too general.

What is an assault weapon? How does a weapon commit assault? Oh, by the use of a human against another human.

On topic: Vehicular assault is also a thing.

Berang > wiffleballtony 06/19/2016 at 22:52

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I don’t know if it’s just an opinion, it’s seems like a fact that killing somebody else against their will is worse than killing yourself? Or do you disagree?

wiffleballtony > Berang 06/19/2016 at 23:08

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It’s apparently an opinion because you seem to think there’s a difference between someone making the conscious choice to do something like drink and kill a family and drive or smoke cigarettes exposing many to carcinogens which has a definite and measureable impact on others and committing felony murder. I guess to you the main difference is the amount of time it takes to kill someone. Also I would like to point out that murder is already illegal. Whats the plan here, make his actions super illegal? If he had bombed the place would we be having this conversation? The Orlando shooter passed his checks and wouldn’t have been declined at the counter because the FBI failed to do its job to begin with. I get it. You don’t like guns. You said you were done, and I was willing to stop the conversation, why continue.

RallyWrench > Steve in Manhattan 06/19/2016 at 23:15

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I agree with you, but in fairness, the ‘bu is pretty slow. One could just casually step out of the way before it went 20 feet.

Berang > wiffleballtony 06/19/2016 at 23:34

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Apparently, you have no idea what “intent” is and how it fits into the definition of murder. But ok. We can leave the convo here.

TheRealBicycleBuck > wiffleballtony 06/19/2016 at 23:39

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http://oppositelock.kinja.com/i-see-you-like…

This is one of my posts in a discussion with a gun control advocate. It has a lot of stats and links. There are more in other posts in the same thread.

Berang > TheRealBicycleBuck 06/19/2016 at 23:44

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Pretty weird how if you just disregard a lot of gun deaths, it seems like there are fewer gun deaths.

Berang > TheRealBicycleBuck 06/19/2016 at 23:47

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I’m not sure what that has to do with anything? I just thought it sort of odd that there was a huge media uproar over a lady selling plastic bags, when there’s already quite a bit of money being made from selling people weapons to kill themselves with. Maybe if gun shops honestly labeled cheap handguns as suicide kits, there’d be an uproar.

TheRealBicycleBuck > wiffleballtony 06/20/2016 at 00:02

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You might find some value in this one as well.

http://oppositelock.kinja.com/is-anything-i-…

Flyboy is FAA certified insane > Berang 06/20/2016 at 01:11

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While I do agree with you, you must admit that both pieces of machinery cannot perform their desired function without a human behind it.

I think that’s been a big missing part in all of this hoopla is that before focusing on what tool was used to do what, figure out how to prevent ne’er do wells from getting the tool they desire in the first place.

In the case of the Orlando disaster it was a failure of the government to uphold it’s duty to protect the citizens by enforcement of the laws that were in place.

One of the gun shops that dude went to reported him to the FBI for trying to buy body armor and bulk ammo! What did they do about it? He also obviously passed a background check that he should have failed because he had been investigated in the past.

Berang > Flyboy is FAA certified insane 06/20/2016 at 01:47

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In other words, it’s far too simple for somebody to pick up a weapon that makes mass murder convenient.

But even so, I’m just tired of people trying to equate gun deaths to traffic deaths. Pretending that nobody cares when cars kill people, when quite obviously lots of people do and have expended tremendous amounts of resources in making traffic and vehicles safer. If half as much thought were given to regulating firearms we’d probably have a lot less of these messes. But instead everybody involved just wants to invent excuses and point fingers.

Nauraushaun > Berang 06/20/2016 at 05:02

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For me it's this: cars have a purpose that isn't killing. Guns don't. But that's coming from a country that doesnt have or need guns. We had one too many massacres a few decades ago so we put an end to it.

nermal > My citroen won't start 06/20/2016 at 09:19

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So the only answer here is to shoot the cars, so they can’t kill any more people, right?

Berang > whoarder is tellurium 06/20/2016 at 11:41

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Yeah yeah yeah, and next your type are going to be whining about calling guns “weapons” because they’re only weapons when used as weapons and calling guns weapons gives them negative connotations and is unfair to people who just want to use guns to shoot people.

whoarder is tellurium > Berang 06/20/2016 at 14:20

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No. A weapon is a weapon. Firearm or not. Swords are weapons too, but are (like firearms) used for other purposes such as competition, hobby, etc.

Berang > whoarder is tellurium 06/20/2016 at 14:24

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Then what’s wrong with assault weapon?

whoarder is tellurium > Berang 06/20/2016 at 16:58

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It is a term often used by the media, politicians and others alike to vilify guns and gun owners. Its usually paired with the words “fully automatic” and that is usually not correct as well.

Most of the time, a gun crime is committed with a revolver or semi-auto handgun.

Even then...how can an object commit assault? Only by the hands of a human against another.

Nimbus The Legend - Riding on air like a cloud > Berang 06/20/2016 at 19:53

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The whole “INSERT OBJECT HERE- kill people, we should ban them too” side of the argument NEEDS TO STOP.

This is the argument of someone with nothing intelligent to say, and someone who can not think about this issue with a clear head because “the gov is trying to take away your guns.”

Cars were invented as transportation. They are meant as a way to get from point a to point b. Not as a weapon, or “hunting tool”

Guns were invented to kill.

Lets not pretend it was invented for sport.

It was invented to launch a tiny projectile at high velocities at animals, and other people, so that we could eat those animals and defeat our those other people that would be our foes.

People need to start using common sense.